48 | When Is It Time To Go? (Part 2)

In this podcast episode, we are continuing with the conversation from the previous episode. This is part two of confidence knowing when is it time to go. So if you haven't listened to the last episode yet, just hit pause on this one, hop on over, go check that one out first, because this is a direct continuation of that conversation.

And for those of you who have already listened, I'm sure you have been just waiting for this episode to come out to hear the second half of the conversation. So I won't keep it from you. Any longer, enjoy the rest of the conversation around confidence knowing when is it time to go.

xo
Liz

In this podcast episode, we are continuing with the conversation from the previous episode. This is part two of confidence knowing when is it time to go. So if you haven't listened to the last episode yet, just hit pause on this one, hop on over, go check that one out first, because this is a direct continuation of that conversation.

And for those of you who have already listened, I'm sure you have been just waiting for this episode to come out to hear the second half of the conversation. So I won't keep it from you. Any longer, enjoy the rest of the conversation around confidence knowing when is it time to go.

well, Hey there, I'm Liz St. Jean, and this is the RISE in Your Nine to Five podcast, where I help sensitive high performers who want to have meaningful and fulfilling careers, making an impact in the world. It's where strategy meets intuition to become a better leader with more joy, less stress and endless impact.

So let's break free from perfectionism, imposter thoughts, and that inner rule keeper that keeps you in a career comfort zone. It's time to become unapologetically you. And step into the life you were meant to live. We're going to talk presence, productivity, and having it all. Or as my four-year-old would say, we're going to take over the world.

So let's get to it.

/ Heather, I hope it's okay to mention this but I remember on the thread, the original thread, we were talking about this, you made such a wonderful comment about how I, I, if I'm paraphrasing it, that you're, you don't even particularly love the term mentor or mentee because you feel like you learn so much from the people, whatever position they're in, what stage of their career. And I was hoping to hear more from you about that in the context, especially what Lesli was just saying.

Yeah. So it, it's an interesting thought that's. Kind of come to my head for me over the last couple of years and I'll, I'll give you a little story behind it.

Um, I definitely grew up, you know, having amazing mentors throughout my career, and I had the opportunity to work with this individual that I was just blown away with. I absolutely adored that individual style, how they approached customers, how they approached internal colleagues at all levels, and it was really somebody I wanted to learn from.

and in a conversation with that individual, I said, Hey, you know, would you mind being my mentor? And almost instantaneously the tone of the conversation changed to a formal conversation because the individual flipped to thinking about, you know, okay, so I'm a mentor now I need to, you know, here's the things I need to go through.

And even, you know, had this great intake form everything, which it was amazing. I'd never thought of it before, to get to know me better and where my goals were. Where in reflection, all I wanted was, you know, a casual conversation with somebody that I really enjoyed, that individual style, you know, get their thoughts on things.

So it made me reflect back on what I would've previously called, you know, mentoring and what did those individuals want from me. Nine times outta 10, the individuals I was connecting with wanted more of that casual convers. They didn't necessarily want a formal mentoring coaching type moment. They wanted somebody to bounce an idea off, Hey, I saw this, or I was thinking about this, or I'm considering a career change.

Is this the right time for me? They wanted that casual back and forth conversation. And the second part of that aha, was in those conversations, I got just as much out of it as the other individual. Hopefully did. You never know, right? Um, by listening to. And it usually ended up being a little nugget that I've been searching for myself in another part of my career or conversations that I extracted from that conversation that was impactful.

And so that's why I shy away usually from using the term mentor. And most of my conversations, unless it's a formal type engagement, cuz I do tend to find it changes the tone and it doesn't always necessarily go in the direction that that individual may need it to go at that time.

Super interesting. Lesli, it looks like you have a thought there.

Yeah, Heather, I honestly despise might be a strong word, but really greatly dislike the formal mentor mentee program. I believe that it never actually, Works as intended because now there is a forced relationship that usually in some way, uh, at companies require some type of documentation.

So now it just becomes more work. And my best mentor experiences, both being what I'll call mentee and being a mentor to someone have been when it's never been actually established until. Years after the relationship has formed, and I have found that those have been the keys to my success both Being around someone because it's usually when I'm looking at a mentor, quote unquote, it's someone that I usually like you greatly respect and want to learn more from and, and get those kernels of, of wisdom from.

And usually what they're looking for from me, so much what you're saying is someone to listen to. In an informal, casual way that will give them feedback that their direct reports might not give them or others in the food chain of the organization won't give them. It's not disrespectful or callous, but it's more honest, you know, to, to go back to the thread about you want honest feedback from, from people. And as a mentor, I, you know, I've been able to give honest feedback and I've never called myself a mentor to someone. I use that term when someone has said to me that they really felt that I've been a great mentor to them when I was even thinking that way. What I will also share, the greatest way to ruin a mentor mentee relationship, especially in formal one, is to report to that person formally.

And one thing that's coming up for me, I'm thinking about the, the mentor conversation and around this piece around knowing when, when to leave or in Heather's words where we're going to. What advice would you give someone who, who they, they are thinking like, Ooh, I could reach out to this person. What advice would you have about that? Either that reach out, you know, the kinds of information that would be most valuable to solicit from that person to help them make their decisions?

So Liz, what I hear you asking is if the mentee reaches out to the mentor to engage. And again, I paraphrasing back to you to engage in that conversation cuz they're considering a chain and what pieces, information the mentee should bring to the conversation for the mentor to kind of better understand the situation.

Yeah, exactly. And also what's, what information could they, um, solicit, ask for from the mentor that would help?

Love it again. It goes back to me is, you know, absolutely. You both hit it on the head. You know, Lesli and Liz reach out again. None of us are gonna turn that call down. If you wanna chat, ring me up.

Happy to do that. First thing I'm gonna ask you in that conversation is where do you wanna be in five years? , let's take that and back that into this decision in this moment in time. Cuz that decision at this moment in time again is wrapped up in emotions. Your five year probably isn't. So you can look at it a little differently.

Plus it helps me with somebody who may not be as fluent with your goals to better gauge and help guide that conversation. Cuz my job isn't to tell you a decision. My job is to guide you in that conversation, to help you get to the decision that's right for. Right. And so come with what is your five year goals or some version of it.

It doesn't have to be title based, but tell me, do you wanna have direct reports? Do you wanna be managing, you know, a large, giant organization, have financials, whatever it could be. Do you wanna be retired? That's good. Awesome. No problem. So come with that and then come with what is, what's got you wrapped up in this decision at this point in.

Are you running away from something? Is something going on that you're not happy about, that you're seeking something new? Or did this just new opportunity or new decision point come to you in some form or fashion? And it's so intriguing you're really considering it yet, even though you weren't looking.

And then we can kind of tease some of that out of where we, you know, what works for you? What do you need out of this right now?

Love that. Yes. Lesli, what do you think?

Yeah, I love that too. What I would also say is, you know, thinking about more of that extended network, right? That, that we're talking about that you wanna reach out to, to get some guidance is. Finding the people that can maybe answer some informational aspects for you.

So for me it was an industry change from construction to commercial real estate. And while they fall under a general umbrella, it's still different sides of the industry. And so, Ask them what information if you know that they're in the real estate industry Now, what do you know about this company that, that I'm thinking about going to work for?

Well, you know, about these people , you know, especially if you see that they have some mutual connections, rights. Talking on LinkedIn, in private mode is totally acceptable. If that's where you feel that you need to be and don't want public, don't want someone to see what you're looking for, totally acceptable because it helps you gather.

It helps you figure out what you don't know and what you're trying to solve for. And so partially for me, when I made, when I was looking for the decision to leave, I went from a very, very large established company to a company that, quite frankly, I had never really heard of before and had, and had only been in business for five years.

Talk about a big change, right? So, so forget about the, the confidence of just, am I ready for this move? Am I ready to take on this additional responsibility? Are they going to really believe that? That they made the right choice when they also chose to hire me. And am I really ready for this increase in responsibilities and this, this greater independence?

There's also just the very basics of: is this company established? Where are they going? What is the industry news? You know, or insight about them from others that are their peers or competitors. And if you have friends or connections within that, use them because, for a large group of us, we're mothers and we have a family to provide for, and in my case, I'm a single mother and so I'm it . And so you, you, there is nothing wrong with trying to get some just general industry , information or company information that you can't glean from a website or from interviews with people within the organization, but that you can get from your extended contact list.

That, that honestly, that information and the information that I gleaned from the company, from my extended network is what made me feel ultimately confident saying, I'm ready for this change. This is great. I should do this. It's time to go. But I felt confident that I was stepping onto something also firm, which makes it a lot easier to make that jump, especially if you're going from something very large, very established to something that with your knowledge base, doesn't feel that same way. I think there's value in that as well. And just gaining information and perspectives.

Yeah. And that goes to that piece that we were hearing earlier about that diversity of network too, right? Having that sounding board, diversity and sounding board. I wanna mention for people listening to, if especially we have talked a fair amount about, you know, extended networks and reaching out, if this is something that you wanna hear more about or you want more resources on, and do a little plug here.

If you've been a listener, you know that I have the form on my site at themintambition.com/ideas. Or you can let me know, you can let me know what you wanna hear on the podcast, so if there, because there's lots of different resources and, and experts and my own thoughts on how you can do that.

So please hop on over there and let me know if you wanna hear more about that because, you know, as we've heard this has come up, it's been a, a bit of a thread in this conversation.

So one last thing before, before we start wrapping up, but one thing I really would love to hear from the two of you is around, is around the emotions that can come up.

I hear a lot of time from people around, there's emotions around regret that can come up. Either they're worried about having regret, or they're feeling regret. , but also around guilt. Guilt comes up a lot around decision making, especially for people with families trying to make decisions around their families, guilt around leaving teams. I'm curious if you've either experienced it yourself or even just have thoughts for how someone can work through that and, and what to bear in mind when we're having those big emotions making a decision. See, Lesli, you ready to go on that?

Yeah, I'll go. Because I had a ton of big emotions, you know to share something fun. When I left my first job, which was as an auto noal, planes adjuster in Brooklyn, New York, It became, it was so easy for me to leave because I was so miserable and knew that I was jumping something better to talk about those big emotions. I mentioned earlier, I cried over the decision. I cried telling my manager, I, I cried writing the email that I sent to over a thousand colleagues that I was leaving.

I cried over the responses I received from those people saying, I can't believe you're leaving, or good luck. So there was a lot of emotion, and I've learned in my life that, I would always rather regret something I did than something I did not do as long as I felt that the decision I was making was the best one for me with the information I had at the time that I needed to make the decision.

Right? And I felt like this move was a well researched, well thought out move. There was also a lot of guilt still of the teams I was leaving behind and the people I was leaving behind that I had worked with and trained and helped develop. Their tears on their side as well, which definitely adds to the guilt.

I think what you need to remember is that while we're wrapped up, and I'm talking about all these big emotions and we get wrapped up in our, in our jobs, in our careers, it is just one piece of who we are and, and that you will, your work will continue to go on. It will get taken over by someone else.

It'll get absorbed by group , or in the most extreme case, it'll be recognized that we didn't need to be done anymore. It'll get dropped. You know, not the case in my situation. However, you have to really acknowledge that you're going to feel those things and that they're okay. and they're natural and they're a part of the process because what that says about you is that you care, you're committed and you have a mutual respect.

For the people that you work with and spend so much of your time with that you want to do it and move on in the right way because you know, you never know talking about the five year plan, you never know who you could be working with five years from now, that you want to depart in a way that should you end up bumping into them again.

It's an amicable, you know, reconnection or even, you know, a work related reconnection and, and both parties are glad for it, you know? I've been fortunate that I've been able to maintain the relationships with my team, with, with teams that I've had breakfast with some people. I've had lunch with some people, and we still connect from time to time just to catch up with each other, not just so much on the work, but on life as well because we cared. And so you, you wanna acknowledge that all of those feelings are normal and rational and, and, and important and good to have and okay to have. And so own your own feelings and get rid of the rest is how I would, is how I would leave it and, and acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with whatever you feel and you could feel nothing and that's okay too.

Heather, what are your thoughts? .

Well, first I, I wanna add a third big emotion in there cause I feel like it's another one that always hits hard on this is it's the fear. You know, you have regret, guilt, and fear. And it's that, that three-legged stool that is just so strong, right? In these big decisions you make in life, it's not just, you're clear that those three way heavily on, you'll probably find 'em creep up in other parts.

I think a really impactful thing to do is sit with those feelings, understand the why behind. . Once you understand the why behind them, then you can figure out ways that make yourself comfortable with the change. Don't use them as you know, blockades to what you wanna do next. , just view 'em as something that, okay, I understand the why now.

Maybe it's because, you know, I feel guilty over leaving my colleagues behind, like you mentioned. Okay, well set up coffees and lunches with them. Stay in touch. This may even help grow their careers with, you know, expanding the network into other companies. Keep those relationships alive. If it's about loyalty and regret about leaving the company that you've been with for a long period of time, then help set your successor up.

Leave behind, you know, if they're hired before you leave, transition them really well. Make sure things run smoothly both for the individual, the company, and the team that they may be leading. And then leave it. Leave those emotions there. Enjoy the new opportunity that you get to go have and let those go you.

And now understand the why's they weren't necessarily showstoppers for you, and you can move forward into where you need to be in your career.

Love that. Yeah. Like what are those emotions telling you? What can we learn from them? Right.

Right. They shouldn't stop you never, you know, but they're never, you can't, you can't ignore 'em. Like, gosh, no, that's not a good thing. But you, you have to understand the why behind 'em. Otherwise they're just gonna sit and weigh you down.

Totally, totally agree and fear is a good one. And there's also not just guilt of the team you're leaving, but the guilt of how happy you are for your next opportunity. Right?

And you don't necessarily want to be jumping up and down happy when you realize that a lot of your coworkers might be miserable or could be miserable over the fact that you're leaving. So it, it's, it's that mixed bag that guilt isn't always inherently negative either.

And Lesli, I think you hit on an important one in yours, and I just wanted to reiterate it, in, in the regret a great way. I always look at it similar, it sounds like to you as what will I regret less, will I regret less staying or going, because that's a great gauge, right?

Because you're gonna have lots of regret in life. You know, looking back on it, what, what am I gonna say? Yeah, you. I did pretty good with that decision. It was, it was the best choice I could have made at that point in time. I'm glad I did that. You don't know everything. We don't have a magic eight ball, so what will you regret less?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. And the other phrasing I've used is you get to choose your regret because we can't do everything. So which regret do you wanna choose? And just, and make it a conscious.

I like that. I'm gonna have to keep that one. I'm gonna write that down.

Yeah, Liz, I like that one too. That is a, that is a great, that is a great way to frame it

With that as much as I know I'll regret ending this conversation, thank you both so much for this, this has been absolutely fascinating. I know listeners are benefiting so much from hearing about this, we touched on so many different things that'll be of value and allow them to be making those more, you know, we can think of them almost as more powerful decisions, right?

Or more conscious decisions. What can we learn from our emotions? How can we reach out to those extended networks? How can we go in with those questions and going in with information such as thinking, okay, what is my five year plan or my 10 year plan? So that I can both learn from my emotions, right, we don't ignore them, but also put on that rational side of the hat and be thinking forward, you know, to Lesli's point, how am I growing and to Heather's point, where am I going to? So it's not all coming from that more fear-based place or just trying to leave.

But where are we going? How are we? How are we growing? Where is our growth opportunity? I absolutely love this conversation. It was so helpful. Thank you both so, so much for being here. I really appreciate it,

Liz. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Liz.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Now, before you go, make sure you click to follow the show this way you don't have to go looking for the latest episode. I'll come to you. Just click the plus button or the follow, and you'll get the latest episode fresh off the press. Thanks again. And remember that you are amazing. Now, get out there and RISE.