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Show Notes
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Full Transcript
We are in for a treat today. I have my friend and career expert, John Neral here with us today going to be answering questions about potential mistakes that mid-career professionals might be making.
So sit back and enjoy learning with John!
xo
Liz
Resources mentioned in the show:
- Get the free guide "5 Mistakes Mid-Career Professionals Make (And Need to Stop Doing): at johnneral.com
- Listen to John on the The Mid-Career GPS Podcast
- Get John's books (affiliate links):
- Connect with John on social: LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram
- Get tips for the STAR interviewing method (BetterUp article)
One of the biggest mistakes mid-career professionals make is they either don't know or they don't know how to communicate their value strongly. So when I said earlier about stop pitching, what I wanna offer there is that pitching comes from a place of want.
I want something when I'm pitching. When I communicate my value from a place of value and service, it comes from that place where I wanna help. So one of the things is, if I said to you, I can help you with this, your brain is triggered very differently. Because you're not trying to sell or pitch me.
You're actually trying to partner with me. Here's how I can help. I control the narrative and I get to communicate my value. That creates greater engagement, it generates larger interest, and now hopefully the other person that I'm speaking to is more interested in learning more about me instead of just finding me interest.
well, Hey there, I'm Liz St. Jean, and this is the RISE in Your Nine to Five podcast, where I help sensitive high performers who want to have meaningful and fulfilling careers, making an impact in the world. It's where strategy meets intuition to become a better leader with more joy, less stress and endless impact.
So let's break free from perfectionism, imposter thoughts, and that inner rule keeper that keeps you in a career comfort zone. It's time to become unapologetically you. And step into the life you were meant to live. We're going to talk presence, productivity, and having it all. Or as my four-year-old would say, we're going to take over the world.
So let's get to it.
Hello. We are in for a treat today. I have my friend and career expert, John Neral here with us today going to be answering questions about potential mistakes that mid-career professionals might be making. John works with mid-career professionals who are feeling stuck, undervalued, underutilized.
He helps them show up to find a job they love. Our love the job they have by helping them build up a GPS to get there. John's an executive and career transition coach. He's a best-selling author, speaker and host of the mid career GPS podcast. And he lives in Northern Virginia with his spouse and they are, they proud parents of a 21 pound rescue cat named Amy Farah, me Eller. After their love of the television show, the big bang theory. Favorite show of mine as well. So sit back, relax. Or if you're on your walk, enjoy the walk. Or if you're doing the dishes, hopefully it's helped the dishes go faster. And really enjoy and you'll learn so much from this conversation with john
Well, hello and welcome to the show. So wonderful to have you here. So John, you are an executive and career transition coach, and you're also the host of the Mid-career G P S podcast. So let's even start off by talking about mid-career. I'd love to hear how you define it and also hear if you have any stories about whether you've had any mid-career defining moments.
Well, thanks, Liz. So the interesting part about this is that we can define mid-career in a variety of different ways. If we go by the official definition with the US Department of Labor and Statistics, they define mid-career as. 10 years of work experience after graduation. So they don't define whether that's high school or college graduation, but that would put people typically somewhere in the 28 to 32 year age range at the start of mid-career.
There are other beliefs out there that if we take the career and we chunk it into thirds, so let's say you happen to work for, we'll just make the math easy, right? 45 years. So the second 15 years of your work experience, which would put you around 35, 37. So our late thirties to early forties, that tends to also be the time when we think about mid career.
I also like to think of mid-career as that point where you clearly see your career start to shift and move into a place where you're looking to make a bigger move, or you're settling in organizationally and you're looking to level up internally. So for me, my mid-career moment happened. When I was teaching a lesson on how to multiply fractions, so I got my career started as a middle school mathematics teacher, and I taught this lesson one day.
It worked. I knew the kids would get the concepts and everything, and this little voice crept into my head and it said, John, You can't do this for the rest of your life. And I thought, yeah, I'm just gonna ignore that. And then of course, the next day I'm teaching again. And the same voice creeps in and imagine standing in front of a room full of 25 middle schoolers, right?
And this voice creeps in your head and goes, John, what the hell are you doing? You can't do this for the rest of your life. And I thought, okay. And then you start listening to it and you go, okay. And what I found out was, What I wanted to do at that point in time in my career was I wanted to work more with adults.
I wanted to be more of a teacher trainer, professional developer, and that opportunity wasn't available to me where I was working, and so that meant I had to get very bold and figure out where was I gonna go to do that. Long story short, what ended up happening was, I ended up accepting a job for the District of Columbia Public Schools in Washington, DC where I was managing 21 instructional coaches across 13 middle schools.
And the sole purpose of that job was to help these coaches, help their teachers be better teachers that ultimately impacted student achievement That moment. Absolutely shaped whatever else came for me after my career, and I'm always so grateful and blessed that I had that experience.
Wow. I'm sure a lot of people listening can really identify with that.
And those of you listening, you couldn't see it of course as a podcast, but I was cracking up about the, the, the, the voice, because I think you all know I love sci-fi. I have this like image of this voice coming down, telling, telling John. So, and I think a lot of people do have that. And I, I love how you recognize there's different, there's different versions of mid-career, like different times, but it's, I think a lot of people will resonate with that. Either they're looking for a change, they're in that possibly late twenties, but especially into the thirties. And I love too how your, even your, like your podcast name is about the mid-career g p s, because I hear, I actually hear this a lot from people about, they talk about, they kind of say, oh, it's a mid-career crisis.
But they're saying it in such a way, it's not actually like, they're like, well, I don't really feel like it's that crisis that you used to hear about. So I think people will love that concept of mid career GPS finding where they're going. And you have four stages four stages of building your GPS, right?. So I'd love to hear more about that .
And I wanna thank you for framing this too, Liz, because a crisis makes, it feels like we're broken. We're not broken. We're just gonna write a different chapter in our career. We're gonna turn the page and go do something different, whether it's internally or outside of wherever it is that you're working.
And those four steps to building your mid-career g p s are grounded in preparation, positioning, promoting who you are and what you do, and how you show up. So in the preparation phase, what we're trying to do here is ultimately figure out what's our. Where do we get to leverage our strengths, our expertise, align our values that you talk so much about that I really appreciate, and doing that kind of work that truly fills us and feeds us with the people that we get to serve.
If we don't have clarity around what it is we wanna do next, we can't build the other components of the GPS because then it feels like the proverbial throwing spaghetti at a wall and looking to see if it sticks. So we have to spend time getting clarity around what exactly it is that we wanna do.
Once we have that, then the positioning piece is where things like your resume and your LinkedIn come into play. So whether you try to find a job either through a. Using a traditional job board or you're going to network, you need those tools in your favor as part of your branding when it comes to promoting who you are and what you do.
That's the piece where the networking and the interviewing come in, because promoting who you are and what you do is all about telling your story from a place of value and service. Stop pitching. Stop pitching. You know, I need this job, or whatever it. Tell me why you're valuable. Tell me what it is that makes you unique and stands out, and ultimately, when you go in for that interview, what I wanna offer your listeners here is take a look at the job posting.
and dissect that job posting to identify exactly what problem they want you to solve, as evident by hiring you. That's where your value as a professional aligns into that position. And then the last patient showing up is your energy and executive presence. It's your brand and reputation that come together in six strategies that I talk about, um, to tru.
B, the authentic professional and the powerful professional you are that's gonna go into an organization and do some phenomenal things. .
Okay. So there's so much good stuff in there we could pull the thread on. One of the things that comes to mind, something that, that I talk about, is really aligning between our views of the world is, is impact, right?
What impact do we wanna have? And so that piece around values. Spoke around, really speaks to me as well about seeing yourself. It's not just about getting a job and going in and thinking about what you're getting, but it's also about what impact are you having and how does that add value? So I love that piece and, and I actually just like put that out there Is all right.
Does that bring anything up for you? Any extra thoughts that you wanna share with people?
Yes. And Anna, what I'll offer here is that when you hear somebody say, I wanna make a bigger impact, that is your opportunity to get Uber curious and say, tell me more. We have to get out of, like, in our world, Liz, we hear so much about coach speak right?
In, in, in the, in the job world. We know that there are buzzwords that people tend to throw out, that they think everybody's gonna know what that means. When I was hiring people across various organizations where I worked, my biggest pet peeve was when somebody said to me, well, you know, I'm a team player.
And I would say, great. Tell me how you play on a team. Cuz I'm not so sure we play the same way. And it would throw them a little bit. And I wasn't trying to be that that difficult interviewer, but what I wanted was I wanted clarity. I wanted them to define. So when we think about impact, where do you make your impact?
Is it things like around. Talent development and people management, do you make a greater impact around process improvements? Are you, are you making a bigger impact around strategic thinking and visioning, whether it be for your business or your organization? The clearer and cleaner we can be about how we define our impact, the easier it is for someone to make a decision about whether or not they wanna hire.
when, when I talk to a lot of job seekers and they go into the job market and they go into an interview and they're all understandably nervous and worried about what they're gonna say and how the interview's gonna go, I always bring them back to be clearer and cleaner about your message so they can make a decision whether they ultimately offer you the job or.
I love that and I feel like we could almost like play with that team player analogy even a bit further because it really strikes me as well, like I, I used to play quite a lot of sports, so it comes to mind, I play on different teams, so. if you're a team player or like even just thinking about the kind of game that you're good at.
Like let's say you're a tennis player and you're an amazing tennis player and you're going in trying to convince someone that you are a great, I don't know, let's say water polo player, right? Like those are very different skill sets. Like they're both games are both. Both be team sports. But it's, I think there's a piece here too about being confident in who you are and what you bring to the table, and it's about finding a match with what they are looking for.
What do you think about that?
It, it's so well said, and as I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, I, I, for a very, very short time in my life, I played basketball. Speaking of short, I'm five eight, so I'm not a really good basketball athlete, but I was always the one, I would rather pass the ball than take the.
That didn't necessarily make me a great team player cuz there were times when I had the hoop in my line of vision that I could have taken the shot and I chose not to. Right. Those are the kind of things where I wanna know, you know, to coin the Hamilton phrase, right? When are you gonna take a shot? Right?
And when are you going to develop or engage? It's that thing. We just have to be clear about how we, we communicate, what it means for us as a leader, as a team player, as an executive, and the better we are at telling our story, the bigger impact, whether it be relationships, client building, networking, efficiencies and process, whatever that is, however you choose to define what impact looks like, the easier.
So let me jump on that piece around the storytelling, cause I've done a couple episodes on this and I'd love to hear from you as well. Mm-hmm. If you have any really actionable tips around storytelling. I would love to hear what nuggets or tips or little tricks or anything like that that someone could take and like take today even to their next interview, they have an hour from now, let's say.
When it comes to telling your story, it needs a very clear, beginning, middle, and end.
The ending has to, has to clearly identify what were the results that were directed by your. What were you responsible for in telling the results? The other thing is keep your response to under two minutes in a behavioral interview, you want to open up space for dialogue or follow up questions. The brain tends to shut off after about two minutes.
They're like, okay, you're gonna land the plane here or not. So you wanna open up that space for some dialog. The better you get at telling that story with a very clear, beginning, middle, and end, whether you use the star method or not, I personally like the Star method, but not everybody does. And so keep it under two minutes.
Allow for some dialogue and tell that story from your place of value and service that's gonna be more meaningful to them.
I love that. And for anyone listening, if you don't know what the Star method is, you can Google it or I'll even, I'll drop and make sure to drop a link in the show notes as well. The piece around results.
I wanna pause on that for a moment and I'm gonna put you on the spot here a little bit, if you don't mind. Sure. Not at all, like a second, because I find that it's can be really tricky. I feel like, especially when people are looking like in their own weeds, like it's easier when you're talking to someone else, but understanding the difference between what you did, like what your tasks were and how you did.
Versus the the result or the accomplishment or impact or value. Right. And I'm wondering if you could give a couple of concrete examples of the difference, cause I think that could really help frame it for people about, oh, I'm talking about what I did when I should be talking about my accomplishment.
When I think of results, and this is the former math teacher in me. I like a data metric attached to it. So how many, how much, what percentage, what dollar amount. I'd offer your listeners to really think about the tangibles that they can attach to it. That would be one piece. The second piece is when we think about results, your point is so well taken is that we can be very internal about it and us thinking about it.
I wanna offer that there's an opportunity to have a branding conversation with your colleagues to say to them, what am I known for? Where do you see me drive results? Where do you see me be more effective and listen to what other people are saying and see if that aligns with your internal dialogue.
There can be confirmation in what comes back to you. There can be some validation. There can also be some frustra. Or disappointment in thinking, oh my gosh, that's not what I thought was going to come back. I remember working with somebody where they prided themselves on that they had an open door policy that anybody could come and talk to them.
Well, when they surveyed people on their team, what they found out was that they were unavailable, unapproachable, and too busy for them, and Wow. Did we have to unpack a lot of that because, Their internal dialogue, their internal facts were different than what other people saw it. And, and that's the thing, when we think about results, it's got to align.
You know, if you're in a sales job and your target for your book of business, let's say is 10 million in a fiscal year, you're either gonna meet that target or you're not. That is a tangible. That's a very clear, definitive result. There are other jobs where the results might seem a little more intangible, which again, leads to have those branding conversations around where am I most effective?
Yeah, I love that. And the other piece I would add too, with that internal external, When people are giving you, like I'm talking to you, the listener out there, everyone are giving you responses. Also bear in mind that that is their perspective coming with their lenses, their experience. And this is why there's so much value in getting multiple perspectives rather than just one perspective.
Because it can very, if you hear something from one person that might trigger or, or maybe even, maybe even aligns with what you think of yourself, but then 10 other people have a different view. Of the same situation. It's really important data to collect for yourself about your brand. So I really appreciate that, John.
Yeah. Can I add one thing to that though? Absolutely. Just piggy back on what you were saying. So if any of the listeners do wanna do this exercise, what I would offer them is, obviously it needs to be someone you trust, someone who you know is gonna give you great feedback and input, but third, Don't spring the questions on them, set up a time, be it a meeting, coffee, lunch, whatever that is, but send them the questions ahead of time so they can truly think and serve you in that moment.
Sometimes people aren't really great on the spot or they're afraid of maybe what they're gonna say or how it's gonna land. Say, look, I wanna talk to you about this and here are the questions I'm gonna ask you. Send 'em two or three questions just so they can start thinking about it. They'll be far more, uh, they'll be better prepared to serve you when you go to have that conversation.
Ah, I love that. And again, kind of putting on the spot here, but uh, maybe a little plug, is this something that you help people with directly? Can they reach out to you if they need support?
Absolutely. It's, it's one of the things I do with all my executive and career transition clients. It's a, it's a very powerful and helpful.
Perfect. Okay. I think we have time for one more question. I really did wanna ask this one, and it's the, around the mistakes sometimes that are maze or wondering what is the biggest mistake that especially mid-career professionals might be making, especially if they might not even know.
I really appreciate this question, Liz, because it is something where in, in my mid-career journey I had to do a lot of work on as well, and I see this come through a lot with my clients.
We talked earlier about how we tell stories when it comes to telling our own story. One of the biggest mistakes mid-career professionals make is they either don't know or they don't know how to communicate their value strongly. So when I said earlier about stop pitching, what I wanna offer there is that pitching comes from a place of want.
I want something when I'm pitching. When I communicate my value from a place of value and service, it comes from that place where I wanna help. So one of the things is, if I said to you, I can help you with this, your brain is triggered very differently. Because you're not trying to sell or pitch me.
You're actually trying to partner with me. Here's how I can help. So when it comes to telling our story from a place of greater value, one of the biggest mistakes I find mid-career professionals make is they don't use the word help. Imagine being an interview and saying to a hiring manager, here's how I can help you, or you get that, tell me about yourself.
Question at the start of an interview or a networking conversation, and what I will typically say, I help mid-career professionals who feel stuck, undervalued and underutilized show up to find a job they love or love the job they have. I control the narrative and in doing so, I get to communicate my value.
That creates greater engagement, it generates larger interest, and now hopefully the other person on the on that I'm speaking to is now more interested in learning more about me instead of just finding me interest.
Oh, that's such a good one. It's very similar to a question I always suggest people in informational interviews at the end asking the person, how can I help you?
Or How would I know I've met someone that I should introduce you to? That sort of thing, like being gi, you know, giving just as much as we're looking to receive, but also giving.
Well, and I'm, I'm so glad to hear you say that. And as you did, what popped up in my head was the very first time that we met and we met during coach training, and one of the first things you said to me was, how can I help you?
Who can I connect you to? I never forgot that, and I remember. Being taken back a little bit by that, cuz I didn't know how to answer that at this time. What I learned was that it's just your really big heart trying to connect and help and that's one of the things I've truly grown to appreciate about you.
So thank you for that.
I remember you vividly from that training weekend.
As a segue, thank you for giving your time to our listeners for giving all these nuggets and everyone who's listening check out his podcast. He's got two books as well, least two books, maybe even a third at this point.
But he's got books and he's got books. He's, they're really great resources. And John, tell people where. Is the best place for them to find you and, and I know you have a little gift for people as well.
I do. Yeah. So, Liz, thank you so much. The best place for people to find me is on my website@johnnerall.com, j o h n n e r a l.
And I know you'll link that up to that in the show notes and everything right there on the homepage, you can download, uh, the five mistakes mid-career professionals make and need to stop doing. So if you like the mistake I shared, You wanna know the other four, by all means, just download that free guide and get that into your inbox.
I hope that certainly helps you along your mid-career journey. And then also on the website, you're gonna get information about an upcoming online course that I have to help you with your career clarity as you start building the first stage of your mid-career g p s. So stay tuned on the website for more information there.
And then lastly, connect with me on LinkedIn. I love building my network on LinkedIn and would be honored to have you a part of it. You can find me on LinkedIn at John Nall.
Amazing. And just like you noted, we'll put all those links into the show notes. So thank you so much, John. Thank you To everyone.
Listeners, as always, thank you so much for being here and everyone have yourself a wonderful rest of your day.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Now, before you go, make sure you click to follow the show this way you don't have to go looking for the latest episode. I'll come to you. Just click the plus button or the follow, and you'll get the latest episode fresh off the press. Thanks again. And remember that you are amazing. Now, get out there and RISE.
