36 | How to be a powerful leader without sacrificing your sensitivity

Hi friend! 

I'm excited to present you with today's episode. I brought a guest onto the podcast to talk about an important topic: maintaining your sensitivity as a leader, especially when you are strong and ambitious.

Our guest today is Julia Toothacre, named one of Yahoo Finance’s Top 10 Career Coaches to follow, she is a Career Coach + Strategist who equips ambitious professionals to strategize and take action to control and advance their career. With over 11 years of experience in career development, teaching, and coaching, Julia has helped thousands of professionals find clarity in their career path and supported them in their career exploration, management, or advancement.

In the conversation we go into a deep discussion around sensitivity when you're strong, and especially the professional "façade" that many people wear to work every day. We talk about the "social awareness" that costs mental energy to be aware of how others are perceiving you. And we talk about where gossip fits in, especially when it comes to our sense of belonging. 

So let's get to it!

Liz

Resources mentioned in the show

• Ride The Tide Collective The Podcast: www.ridethetidecollective.com
• Connect with Julia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliakrussell/

Liz: So, hello Julia and welcome to this show. It's so nice to have you here.

Julia: Hi Liz. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be able to talk to your audience again. . Yes.

Liz: This will be so good. So let's just start off quickly with, um, telling people a bit about what you do, who you're helping, and, and also where people could find you.

Julia: Yeah, so I am a career coach and strategist. I have been doing this work for over 11 years now. I realized that when I was, uh, sending some information your way, . Um, and it's, it's crazy to me. Uh, I got my start in higher education, working in career development. So I have been in the career develop. Space, um, for that amount of time, which is very different than people who come from being a recruiter or a hiring manager or something like that.

Um, I am actually trained in career development in all of the, you know, who are you and ? What are you doing with your life? And all those kinds of fun things. Um, I work primarily with really ambitious and high achieving people within the corporate space that are in their. Career. So what that means for me is generally.

10 plus years of experience. So you've been out, you've had a couple of jobs, you've done a couple of things. Um, and most of my clients have just hit a crossroads in their career where something has happened that has triggered something for them and they're trying to figure it out and they come to me to have some of those conversations and helped them work through.

What some of that looks like. Uh, I also like to note that I work with people who really want to be in a nine to five. They value a steady paycheck. They value working versus people who are looking to transition into entrepreneurship, um, or who are doing both. They're working full-time and doing entrepreneurship.

That's not generally the audience that I work with. I work with people that are like, No, I wanna go to work, get a paycheck, and then go home and do other things. with my.

Liz: Yeah, so we got a lot of those folks listening. Same thing. They're working often. And I think you touched on the same audience as well.

People who are wanting to take meaningful impact, so they care about the work that they're doing. They want to, yes, do good work, both like good in the world, but also feel good about the work that they're doing.

Julia: Yes, the values connection is generally really important for my clients since that's a conversation that we have quite often,

Liz: Yeah. I actually, I just wanted to tease out something you said there about being into career development versus, you know, someone who comes in from recruiting. For someone who's listening might be like, I don't really know what that means. Like, what does it mean to do career development? Wouldn't, uh, a recruiter be a good career coach for me?

Like what is the.

Julia: So what I have found is recruiters are really wonderful at the job search process, and they are generally really good within niche areas that they have worked in. So whether that is an industry or a functional type, Some of them have worked across different areas and all of that.

They're really great with what is, what needs to be in the resume, you know, how do you talk to a recruiter? How do you handle interviews? The real like nuts and bolts of the career. Um, job application process. When we're talking about career development there, that is a section of career development. But there's a whole other section of figuring out who are you, you know, what are your interests, what are your skills, what are your values?

How do you put all of that together? What does career exploration look like? And really creating more of a plan and a strategy holistically for your career than simply focusing on the job search process. It also includes career management, which is not talked about as often, but is actually uh, one. Main things that I do with clients, which is you're in your job and you want to get to the next level, or you wanna manage the situation you're in, whether it's difficult or you're just ready to do more and be more, and you need an outside perspective for that.

Doesn't mean that recruiters can't do that. Some of them are trained to do that depending on how they run their business. It's the same for career coaches, uh, who focus on career develop. They can likely do all of those things. Some of them focus on different parts of the process, so you just wanna make sure when you're looking for a career coach, you wanna have a good understanding of their background and their specialties before you jump in and make sure that it's gonna be a good match for where you are at right now.

Liz: Yeah, that makes a lot of. And what you're saying too about working with folks who are like at 10, and I often say like 10 to 15 years are usually at mid-career point. There's a lot of people listening to that or who are listening who fit that profile as well. And I recently heard someone, um, reference is being like, I'm trying to figure out like the, the back half of my career.

kind of at a bit of a pit point. Mm-hmm. . So, and I, and I know we have a certain topic we're gonna get to in a second, but I'm curious, like, for that person who comes to you is like, you know, facing that, you know, Crossroads or pivot point that back half of the career, what do you notice is the biggest, um, challenge that's coming up for them or obstacle or frustration?

Julia: It's usually values. Uh, it's a values. Um, the other thing too, and this is really specific, but I've seen it apply if you are millennial in terms of generation, some Gen X's as well. Um, we were raised to go to college. Uh, we were raised that you go to college. There is no question about that. Most of us, not all of us.

Um, and there was a really heavy emphasis on get into a career, get a good paying job, you know, just do something. It doesn't matter if it aligns with you or not, you just need to go through these steps in order to be successful. And that group of people who are in their mid career right now, Are going through this.

I don't know that I wanna do this anymore. I don't know that this aligns with who I am. , right? They're having this awakening partially because of the pandemic. Um, but partially cuz they're in a place in their lives where they're, where they are starting to question choices. That they've made up to that point.

And so generally, when we're looking at that kind of back half of the career, so to speak, it's really about values alignment and what has worked well for you. You know, up to this point. What have you enjoyed? Do you want to start over completely or do you wanna take what you've already done and morph that into something that's gonna work with you and work for you?

And it's really too about who are you. Like, who are you at your truest form and are you doing something that aligns with that, or are you still hanging on to a career that somebody else thought would be good for you based on who you were? 10 or 15 years ago. Yeah.

Liz: The the other piece that comes up for me, cause I I've been, and I've been thinking about this for a little bit, I dunno if you've had thoughts on this, is that that generation, like the folks who are mid-career is also kind of, is also often called the, the zen generation.

Have you heard this? Like you're have to

Julia: elder millennial is what I like to say. . So what I saw wrote

Liz: that like, it feels like an elf. I like that. I feel like an elf, an elder, millennial. So I, I've been kind of seized with, I love this phrase, I've, I've identify with this generation too, like the Oregon Trail generation and that, and, but what occurred to me when I was kind of getting into a little bit more of a deeper reflection is that we also grew up in the eighties.

And for anyone who grew up in the eighties in North America, um, and perhaps the rest of the world, my, my econ background is more in the North America of that period, um, is that there is a lot of financial difficulties. So as we were kids, our parents, Facing a lot of financial stress. And so we kind of grew up and maybe didn't get overt messages, but I wonder how much that kind of played into the subconscious of mm-hmm.

find a career, just get, get to the career, just find something stable. And, you know, you want people wanting that because they were losing jobs or worried about losing jobs. So I'm curious about whether that lands with you or if you have any thoughts.

Julia: Honestly, uh, yes. I, I look, this could be a whole podcast topic on it.

Because it's your parental influence is always going to be there. And I think in that timeframe you had people who did, um, I don't know if I'm gonna classify it the right way, but more traditional jobs, right? So teacher, accountant, you know, the jobs that were just, that were just very common in every day in the community and all of.

Late nineties, early two thousands, we have the.com boom. We have the internet exploding and all of these new careers start to come out that had never. Been a thought before and we were coming up in the career side around that time. So there are so many influences, including the recession, including, um, the two, 2008, not what potentially is happening right now, but 2008 also impacted us and our job prospects and all of that.

Like there are so many influences for. We chose a career or why we chose a career, and in a lot of cases people have a very narrow view, so they look at what their parents have done or their caregivers, They look at what their family has done, and that is the lens that they see the world through. Whereas now because of social media and just exposure to so many things and so many new types of positions and types of organizations coming up, We have so much more opportunity than we used to have, and so it almost feels like this reawakening for that generation of, oh, there's so much more than there used to be.

What am I capable of now? .

Liz: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, it is almost, maybe there's almost too much choice. You get this person who's looking at that back half. Mm-hmm. trying to figure out what's next. And possibly with, um, childhood influence, but also I think the age as well, Like also wanting to make good, dis good solid decisions, especially if your finances contribute towards a family.

And that like we have different considerations. That makes a lot of sense. So we could totally keep talking about anyone who's listening. If you wanna hear us come back and like pull the thread on this topic, let me know. Send u DM or let me know in whatever way reply to any of my emails, let us know. And let's go on to the topic that we had.

You and I have been going back and forth about chatting about will be a great one. And it comes out of the summit. So at the time of recording, we just held a summit last week and it was for sensitive professionals looking to rise to director level positions or to executive level positions. And one of the topics came up for Julia and myself is, um, and what she had been really noticing lately is this idea that, uh, strong, ambitious women or people who identify as women, Having, really having strong emotions, having sensitivities and having it more than what people believe.

So there's like kind of like a mismatch between what people view the ambitious, especially the ambitious female or ambitious, the person who identifies as female. Mm-hmm. versus what's happening on the inside. . So I'm just to kinda leave it like that and you know, Julia, like, let us know what some of your thoughts are on that and then we can keep pulling the thread.

Julia: Yeah. So this is very personal for me and my journey, so I'm using some of that as a basis for this, but also quite a few of my clients, uh, would identify in terms of being really ambitious women, um, and just how they have presented and where they're at and all of that. I think what I noticed for myself, and I've gone through really this like self-discovery journey the last couple of years, you know, Covid really did, did a number for us and there were so many positives, and I think this is one of them for me, on a personal level where I looked at how I have been perceived and what people have told me about my demeanor and how I come across and all of that, and words that people used to describe.

Were strong, confident, um, aggressive, you know, so some positives, but also some negatives. in terms of descriptors and internally, I never really felt that. Internally, there was a lot of insecurity. There was a lot of doubt and questioning and all of that. And I think that I did a really good job of putting a mask on.

And for a lot of my clients, it's been the same way. Um, they are, we are very strong. It's not that that doesn't exist within me. But there's this other level where I look at myself and I go, I'm actually pretty sensitive, , you know, Am I gonna at the drop of a hat cry? Not necessarily. That's, that's not generally, um, what I do.

Although I have clients that that's how they emote, you know? But I, I have very strong emotions internally and I think that it's something that we don't talk about because there is this facade that we feel like we have to put on when we are known as the strong friend, the strong woman, the one that has the opinions, the one that can organize all the things, the one that can run the show and step in if you need them to.

You don't see that person as really having emotions because in that moment they can't. They have to step up and they have to almost be void of that because they need to put on a certain show to be able to demand the respect of people in the room. But if you peel those layers back, if you really get to know that person, if they allow you in at a deeper level, I think you start to see.

The intensity of the emotions behind that person. And I say intensity because there's, it's not necessarily a good or a bad or positive or a negative, it's just when I love, I love very intensely, like I will go to town for somebody that I love, that I care for. I will fight for them. You know, At the same time, like I don't have any patie.

For your BS . And so, you know, I can switch that very quickly to, Nope, we're done. You know, and that's still an emotion, even though it's a separation, It's, I'm so frustrated you've taken me to this point emotionally that I'm now protecting myself and cutting myself off. From this relationship, from this communication because it's not worth my time and my energy anymore.

Um, and I think again, if you're around somebody and, and you're in the inner circle, you know that, you know that they are the person that has really, really strong emotions. But that next level of like, you're on the outskirts for them, , you know, so you see it, but you don't see that extra level. I don't think they realize, you know, that things that are said to them actually hurt, you know?

And that getting that, you know, Oh, you're so aggressive. That doesn't feel good. Like that's not a compliment in most settings. Um, so that was some of where I was going and what I was thinking when we were having that conversation.

Liz: Yeah, I mean, there's so much we can pull at there. I mean, one, even just the piece around the, the verbiage that's used and like, there's so many studies around this, like when they look at performance review studies are a really good example.

For, uh, women and people identifying as, as women are often given those kind of critiques of being aggressive and then people presenting or identifying as men being aggressive is actually as a compliment, like literally within the same company. So there's that piece around too. Like I, I feel like there's part of it of people showing up the way they think they need to, but also navigating that balance of expectations.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And another piece you said there that I'm curious to get your reflection on this is around. Like you were saying, it's kind of like you're presenting that facade or presenting that face, right? Mm-hmm. , and there's like a, it's almost like there's a gap, like almost like an econ nerd, but it's almost like a graph, like a ga a gap between like the facade that's being presented and like that kind of grows in one direction and like the who we are behind that.

Mm-hmm. is kind of, and not, may, not necessarily a different direction, but there's like a gap there. Mm-hmm. , I'm curious if you to hear your thoughts on that and especially like, What challenges that presents if someone has that kind of gap.

Julia: I think that's a great way to look at that. , it's a great, a great analogy because.

I think that gap has to exist for us to present that way day to day because we're basically being asked to present a version of ourselves or a modified version of ourselves in order to make everybody else feel comfortable. So even though there is this strong facade that is, it's still a part of who we are.

But it also has to be modified in a lot of cases, not everywhere, but in a lot of cases it has to be modified in order for us to fit in, you know, quotes, uh, air quotes there. For those who say, , we, we have to be able to fit in. We have to be able to fit in with the culture, and it does not matter how progressive the culture is.

It does not matter. The culture that has, that is on the wall, that is on the website and all of that, it comes down to how individuals treat you. And how you are treated in that meeting room and all of that. And sometimes it's great. I'm sure there are people out there, women specifically, who have that experience.

But I would say in the majority of situations it is not like that. We go into a situation where we are fighting to be heard, and so we have to put on that face, we have to put on this certain facade so that we can show up and combat what's coming at. Right. And I'll say one other thing for the facade. Um, nobody would really know this without me sharing it, but I'm almost six feet tall, so I am taller than most average men.

And I can confidently say that I am usually the tallest in most group situations, um, of men and. . So talking about like presenting and how do you come off and all of that. If there was not a gap for me, Between that facade and myself, I would be in the fetal position most days having to deal with people because of the way that they look at me, because of the comments that have been made to me about my height, about my size, all those.

Things, if I didn't have that gap and that facade there, I, I wouldn't be able to survive. And that's horrible. Right? Like , it's horrible to think that, but that's the armor that I had to put on for myself in order to perform and show up and not get affected internally a lot. Right?

Liz: Yeah, that makes sense. So people wouldn't know this about me if it, if I didn't share.

I'm almost five foot tall , so Yeah, you have the opposite problem. , I have the, like, I'm literally overlooked sometimes because lit I'll see people, like, they literally look up and then they look to look down to where I'm at. It's like pretty, pretty funny. So, um, yeah, and it's, so, it's like two opposite experiences, but still that piece around like, Needing to be aware of how we present ourselves.

It's kind of like, it's like, you know, they talk, I know we both have, um, um, kids of a certain age. You talk about body awareness and kids are developing body awareness and spatial awareness. And I feel like this is almost like a social awareness that we've maybe not been aware of, but that we've had to develop is understanding how we sh how people perceive us and experience us despite who we really are.

And then having to figure out how to adjust to that. And I feel. Trying to think. I don't know that we really talk about that that much, like in. Industry. But, um, yeah, I'm curious to hear what you think about

Julia: that. Yeah, it's a lot of energy. Mm-hmm. is what it is. And, and you're right. We don't talk about it a lot.

Uh, funny enough though, this is a conversation I have with clients all the time, , we talk about the energy that it takes to show up into a space. Um, I know for myself, I made a transition from, uh, From a situation where my energy was being drained really profusely, um, to a situation where they really were wonderful and appreciate me and all of that, and oh man, the difference in, in how I was able to show up and operate between those two experiences.

Night and day because my energy wasn't being drained every single day. Having to put on a mask, having to think through, having to filter everything that you said for fear that somebody would think that you're mean, right? Like I. Come on, ,

Liz: and, and this is weird. I think we're on the same page with this.

This is where like some of the traditional, um, not traditional, but some of the writing out there, I'd say surface level writing about like imposter thoughts or imposter syndrome, which is just like, just say, just be who you are and say what you want. It's kind of, there's a missing piece of like, No, but sometimes there's backlash.

There's literally called in the literature, you know, this is probably as well as I do, it's called backlash effect. That can happen. Mm-hmm. So I don't wanna minimize anyone's experience with feeling like they have to put out this extra effort.

Julia: Right. Right. And all of that impacts, you know, again, it impacts how we show up.

It impacts our emotions too, because we're having to hide. We're having like, as a woman in the workplace, especially in corporate, to have any level of emotion. Is a death sentence to you. Now, there are some environments that welcome it because it's primarily, you know, you have a lot of women in one space, or people are just, they've been trained and they understand and it's very welcoming and all of that.

But there is such a lack of understanding of the range of human emotions, and I think between men and women that I'm gonna show up to work and sometimes women be. And sometimes I'm gonna be angry and it has nothing to do with the job, but something has happened in my life, you know? And again, this impacts men and women, right?

Like . I don't know. We just don't, we don't have enough conversations about it. I think people are aware of it, but we don't talk about how emotions impact us from day to day because we've been trained to not bring emotions to work, to not have any type. You know, if you go past the middle in your range of emotions, whether that's anger, sadness, happiness, whatever it is, it's like, Oh, that, what's going on there?

Oh, they're a little too much. Oh, they cry all the time. Oh, they're angry all the time. Oh, they're this, they're that. You know? And it. It blows my mind. It's a conversation it needs to be had, I think a lot more, and it needs to be trained like we need to be having trainings and conversations around how to allow people to show up and be themselves and experience life and it's not gonna be a detriment to their job.

Liz: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, and especially the piece around. Um, training that, that conversations to happen. And I think especially cause I, I do see conversations happening in terms of, of the, the men, like on the mental health side in terms of mental health struggles and like really being accepting and like, there's a shift there that is happening.

And I think we're talking about an additional shift, which is just that like, just like the normal ups and downs that all humans go through. And just for it to be. Nor normalized. Mm-hmm. that we have that and that we talk about it, and that you can bring that to work without it necessarily being a big deal.

Mm-hmm. . And, um, so one of the things I did research on, I do my, when I did my grad studies on organizational leadership, I did my, um, my thesis around gossip in the workplace. Actually, I'm looking at gossip and one of the biggest findings coming from out up, coming out of it was just like, humans gossip.

Like our, our brains wanna make sense of things. And so, Happens. Mm-hmm. . And part of it is like, is like, so when you put up a poster on the wall that says, don't talk about each other, like it's, it's hard because you're trying to like shutting down a part of our brain. But I think layering onto our conversation is the piece around, you know, if we're showing up in a certain way and people, if you're had that workplace that's maybe very polite to people's faces or maybe there's some gossiping that is really challenging just to expect someone to not have that gap between the facade and who they really.

Right. So I'm curious here it comes up for you around that concept.

Julia: Yeah, the , the first thing I thought about was, um, I had a really good friend that I worked with. We became friends in the workplace and I would go to him because I was trying to figure out how to work with people in our office, and I could not, It felt like everything I did was.

With some kind of wall. And I would go into his office and I'm like, Okay, this is what happened. Like this is what they said. This is what I said, , you know, you've been working with them long. Like, how do I manage that? How do I, you know, how do I figure that out? How to figure that. And I think in some cases, if you were to overhear our conversation, you'd be like, Oh, they're, and they're gossiping.

They're talking about this person. And it's like, it's not, it's really not. I think a lot of times we are trying to figure it out exactly what you said. Sometimes it's pure gossip. I mean, it really depends on the language you're using and all of that. But I would say for the majority of people, it's they are witnessing a situation that they are trying to understand and figure out, and if they've never experienced it before or they don't know how to work with this person or whatever it is, They're trying to figure it out.

And so I think then that gets interpreted as, Oh, you're talking about this person. You're talking about this situation. Well, yeah, because nobody else is talking about it. And so how am I supposed to figure it out? How am I supposed to know how to act in this culture if nobody's addressing it? , you know, So when does that happen?

Usually behind closed doors, Right? Or at lunch or whatever, when we're all trying to make sense of the situation. So that's, that's immediately what I thought of when you were talking about that it's like some gossip isn't really gossip and it, I think it can be healthy.

Liz: Yeah, exactly. And that's definitely what I found in the research too, is just a matter of like how we show up for those conversations.

Mm-hmm. matters so much rather than just trying to shut them down. It's just very different intention.

Julia: Yeah. It's, it, it is really about intention. But if you're the person overhearing it, you might not ever know the intention. So it's . It's a double edged sword for sure. It's a tricky one for sure.

Liz: And I, I feel like some of this too must come into that career management space that you were talking about.

Mm-hmm. , like they, that like, honestly I hadn't, I don't think I had really heard that term before, and I'm sure a lot of people listening hadn't heard that term. So I'm wondering how much of this, you know, the. Figuring out the facade, figuring out the gap, you know, imposter syndrome. I think we both hear a lot about imposter syndrome, all of that.

How much of that comes up in that career management space?

Julia: That's like all of it, . That's, that is what it is. It's a lot of imposter syndrome. It's a lot of what your summit talked about. You know, how do you find your voice? How do you, uh, how do you be confident in spaces that you're not confident in, uh, relationships.

Is huge. When we talk about career management, one of the first topics I will talk about are relationships with any manager or some whoever you report to, and then your colleagues and your team, you know, whoever is directly around you. Because if you have negative relationships or something's going on, you have to manage it.

You have to figure it out because it can linger, it can impact you down the road. You know, and in terms of management, I mean, that could be a whole podcast episode, in and of itself, but what is within your control to manage when it comes to your manager or your boss? You know, sometimes it's without, It's outside of your control, like it's them.

They legitimately don't have management training. They are new. They just don't know what to do with you. They're intimidated by you. I've been in that situation more than a few times. Right. So you have to control whatever you can control and manage it as best you can. But sometimes when it's outside of your control, that's the sign to move on, right?

Because it, there's no point in trying to change someone else. That's not gonna happen. But you can change your situation if you need to. Yeah.

Liz: And so I'd love to kind of finish off on some actionable items. So for someone wanting to do that career development work, career management work, what are some suggestions you have, you know, including and um, up to working with you

What are some things that people can do if they really wanna dig into this for themselves?

Julia: Yeah, so first I would look at values. Uh, we talked about this in the beginning. You know, what? What do you care about right now? What are the things that are top of mind for you? And the interesting thing with values is they will change and they will shift.

Anytime that you have a major life or career event, your values will shift. And so you wanna constantly be reevaluating that. Um, I actually have a freebie on my website that you can use that will help you identify your values. So I recommend going there and, uh, checking that out cuz I think that's a really great first line of defense for any career conversation.

Um, so any time, any conversation that you're gonna have, whether it's with me or somebody else, um, that is great to to know right off the bat. Um, I think next your situation is gonna fall into one of three categories, career exploration, career management, or career advancement. And so figuring out where you are at in this moment is really helpful because that's gonna guide what you do next.

So if you are in a space of exploration, then you need to start exploring . Figure out the values. Figure out those parameters that you have in your filters, as I like to say. And start doing some research and ruling things out and putting things off to the side that sound interesting to you. And that can be anything, A functional area, a company, an industry, wherever you're at in that process.

For management, it's what we talked about before, Evaluate relationships first. That's the easiest thing. And figure out what you can control in your position right now versus what is outside of your control. Cause if it's outside of your control, you gotta let it go, right? Like you can't keep worrying about the thing that.

You have no power over. Okay? If it's advancement, then we get more into the job search, right? So whether that's staying at your position and identifying opportunities there, or staying at your company and identifying opportunities there, or moving on to something else and what does that look like? Where do you wanna go?

What does that, you know, next step look like for you? And then all of the actions that you need to do, resume interviewing, applying, all of that will follow up there.

Liz: Amazing. So everyone listening, check the show notes cause we'll make sure you have a link directly to those resources in the show notes. So check them out there.

And Juliet, thank you so much for being here. Remind people where is the best place for them to follow you and to come

Julia: find. Yes, so you can go to my website, ride the tide collective.com. That is where all of my resources are, and also all of my coaching options, which I have a variety of coaching options, regardless of what your budget may be.

So you can check out those options. And then I hang out on LinkedIn. So from a social media perspective, um, you can see some of my stuff over on Instagram, but primarily I'm on LinkedIn, actively posting, I respond to messages. Please connect with me. I love meeting new people and being connected to people over there.

Liz: Amazing. Yeah. So go find her on LinkedIn. Tell her you met her, you met her already on the podcast to meet her more on LinkedIn. And again, thank you so much for this. I so appreciate it. I know everyone listening really appreciates it too. So thank you.

Julia: Thank you so much for having me, Liz. This was great .

Liz: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If this podcast helped you or inspired you in any way, I would love for you to leave me a review over on apple podcasts, it takes 20 seconds, if that, and it's, it's honestly the easiest way for you to thank me for this episode. Every time I see a review, it brings me so much joy and it just lights me up.

So if you could do that for me, I would be ever so grateful. Now, the other thing you can do is you can take a screenshot of this episode or even a screenshot of your review and send it to a friend or share it in a Facebook group or even post on your LinkedIn newsfeed to let other people know about this podcast and this episode.

Thanks again. And now get out there and start breaking some rules.